mikolajoskierko (July 25, 2008 at 1:36 pm)

Ok, now i`v red it and i must admit that you`r right about Bem.Anyway, i know that in Ottoman Empire (i mean the Empire stricte, without vassals) there were only regions where another religions were allowed. Still it was tolerant state, i agree, but i don`t agree with your claiming that 'Republic' wasn`t and putting it as an opposition to Ottoman. Damn, even muslim Lipka Tatars were tolerated and respected...

mikolajoskierko (July 25, 2008 at 1:32 pm)

Pressure... if all of your comrades from shool, huntings, partyies and other noble activityies are following some "fasion"... you can call it this kind of pressure. As far as i know the old privillages and laws, there was nothing about converting orthodoxes. In Crimea there were Genuan colonyies, Kaffa and Kerć, you know what for? Every year Crimean Tatars were kidnapeing tens of thousands Ukrainians and selling them to Genoa or Ottomans like cattle.

mikolajoskierko (July 25, 2008 at 1:26 pm)

Yes he did, but you`r cutting phrases out of context. Artists used to be sometimes crazy... Forgot? Lietuva should claim to its common (underline) history at least the same as Poland, not refuseing it in accordiance to XIXc. nationalism. Polish speaking Lithuanians were Lithuanians as well, but present Lietuva seems to not accepting them. Mikołaj Krzysztof Radziwiłł the "Orphan" was the first Lithuanian who wrote a book, book in Polish of course.

mikolajoskierko (July 25, 2008 at 1:20 pm)

No, swiczed in order to get some profits from the "jesuit King", but it was just period of one King`s reign. The same with orthodox clergy, they signed union of Brest, becouse all of them get thier seats in senate (most of them were already anyway). People like Prince Ostrogski, Chodkiewicz, even father of "Jarema" Wiśniowiecki were opposeing, still they were in senate as a most powerfull lords, orthodoxes. Chmielnicki was loyall officer of Polish army till his age 53, why?

mikolajoskierko (July 25, 2008 at 1:17 pm)

Yes and was supporting Slovak separationists, but it was becouse of `19 invasion on the plebiszite area and oridinary blacmail to annex it (blocked borders in the time of war). No, i was talking about the so called Ukrainians, why if they were so hard polonised for all of those 5 centuries, they still lived there in a big numbers? Pressure was cultural if there was any, simply process of cultures mixing.

darpuzw (July 25, 2008 at 11:39 am)

Ahh, indeed? But what about all the religious minorities in the Empire? There was no concerted attempt to convert them! And you've got your facts twisted: Bem converted in order to serve as governor of Aleppo, i.e. climbing the political ladder, not because he would have been kicked out otherwise.

darpuzw (July 25, 2008 at 11:35 am)

Yes, and why did he convert? Because of the pressure: as you pointed out, the richest families were ORIGINALLY Orthodox. But they became Polonized, either through their own volition, or because of political/social pressures. And yes, race as we understand it today had nothing to do with it: but religion had everything. 'Jasyr' was taken only from enemies of the Christian religion. Ottoman Christians were protected.

darpuzw (July 25, 2008 at 11:32 am)

What do you mean? Did he or did he not call Poland 'Christ of the nations'? However you try to paint it, it's blasphemous and arrogant. And what do you mean by calling in all these other famous people who were forgot about Lietuva and subscribed to the domination of the Poles?

darpuzw (July 25, 2008 at 11:28 am)

Do you mean to say that no pressure was brought to bear on the Orthodox archimandrites? Please! Of course there was! But it wasn't just at highest level: magnates oppressed their serfs who weren't Catholic. And you forget that these magnates switched back to Catholicism in order not to be discriminated against. Hence the reason why Chmielnicki was welcomed in the east.

darpuzw (July 25, 2008 at 11:26 am)

The Polish state was undermining Czechoslovakia through counterintelligence. But your second point supports mine, namely that the populations of these lands felt the pressure to become Polonized!